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ConfianceImp

Posts: 179 Member Since:24/08/2007

#101 [url]

Oct 23 07 8:44 PM

Stalin wrote:
That being the case what principles do you think we could all unite around?


A successful democratically run club with supporter influence. A focal point to ensure that all supporters feel represented and part of the club they support. One that is not the fiefdom of an individual but is run as a collective in the best interests of the club and its constituent members. My opinion!

However it's run we still need to unite around the "club" principle and ideal, whatever the colours of the owners.

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ForumerDeletedUser

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#102 [url]

Oct 23 07 8:45 PM

EddieDillsworth wrote:
Stalin wrote:
Its semantics really based on principles to divide - now thats an agenda in action.


I don't want to have an argument nor do I any intention or desire to divide. I'm sorry if you think that. I really don't see how you can accuse me of being divisive when I'm merely pointing out that if you favour an IPS you may not favour a PLC. The two are based around totally different philosophies for a company, rather like socialism and capitalism in a sociological context. That's all, nothing more nothing less, no wrongs no rights.


You could however argue that a PLC (or maybe a CIC - community interest company) might be more wideranging in it's ownership by supporters as well as businesses than the model we have now. It's an argument, nothing more.

That might be cloud cuckoo land, but it's an argument for a PLC system, with many obvious drawbacks given the club's current status and position.

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ForumerDeletedUser

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#103 [url]

Oct 23 07 8:45 PM

EddieDillsworth wrote:
No I'm not. All I'm saying is that if you are strongly supportive of a movement founded upon the principles of an IPS it is likely (NOTE not certain) that you may not be supportive of a movement founded upon the principles of a PLC.

Arnold, I work in an industry founded upon logic so I'm pretty versed upon when x implies y and any other logical constructs you may want to mention.


Same here Eddie!

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ForumerDeletedUser

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#104 [url]

Oct 23 07 8:46 PM

EddieDillsworth wrote:
Stalin wrote:
I just find the undertones are used to put people in camps which is not how I see it. I think a lot of us can unite round a few things and that should be our concentration, our focus.


I find myself in complete agreement with this.


Ahh, big hug time!

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ConfianceImp

Posts: 179 Member Since:24/08/2007

#105 [url]

Oct 23 07 8:51 PM

The PLC model has drawbacks in its structure based on the premise that it is the shareholder who is the ultimate owner and benificiary of any dividend accrueing from a succesful business. The CIC on the other hand is an interesting model which has only been in existance for a few years.

As far as I am aware the FL precludes it's members from changng their corporate structure unless agreed by the rest of the FL members. Converting to a CIC under the present FL structure would be nigh on impossible. To create a seperate company which owned the ground to be a CIC but the club itself remains a private limited company could be an option. The alarm bells are already ringong perhaps? A CIC would lock in the asset so maybe it's an option?

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ForumerDeletedUser

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#106 [url]

Oct 23 07 9:01 PM

What about the high percentage of supporters who do not support the Trust? Is the difference between "them" and "us" really down to ten quid?
Supporters Direct from what I have seen really does very little for them. It's more of a political tool that is used by those who want the high five or six figure salaries.

I think there will always be detractors at the way the club is run, it's just a fact of supporting a football club. There were many detractors when Reames was in charge, yet he wasn't the sort of chairman to fleece us like a number of chancers have with clubs in the League over time. You could say he stayed there so long because there simply wasn't any other viable alternative and gave way when he saw one. His legacy if you like is the stadium which is owned by the football Club and not by a penny pinching local authority or greedy landlord.

6 years on and at the moment where are the tangible benefits of the Trust having a major say in the way the club operates? There might be a lick of paint here and a new sign there and the Centrespot might be now known as the Trust Suite, but people will still refer to it as the Centrespot. On the down side we have spiralling ticket prices and still the same old issues with customer service at the club, which still stinks in my experience.

Thats not down to just the Trust I know, but "onwards and upwards" isn't really happening, in my opinion - both on and off the pitch. We are standing still or slowly moving backwards - again my opinion but if people want honesty than thats what they are going to get.

In any business it's about changing the customers perception, it's time that the supporters and fans were seen as "customers" and not as "consumers", just taking anything because it's got LCFC on it.

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ForumerDeletedUser

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#107 [url]

Oct 23 07 9:04 PM

ConfianceImp wrote:
The PLC model has drawbacks in its structure based on the premise that it is the shareholder who is the ultimate owner and benificiary of any dividend accrueing from a succesful business. The CIC on the other hand is an interesting model which has only been in existance for a few years.

As far as I am aware the FL precludes it's members from changng their corporate structure unless agreed by the rest of the FL members. Converting to a CIC under the present FL structure would be nigh on impossible. To create a seperate company which owned the ground to be a CIC but the club itself remains a private limited company could be an option. The alarm bells are already ringong perhaps? A CIC would lock in the asset so maybe it's an option?


I think there is also a case where the business would have to become a charity too before looking at CIC status as a possibility.

Yes that is an option for the ground but in the long term and if anything near the inplicit aims of 2010 came to fore and we were looking at becoming an established Championship Club wouldn't then be the possibility of looking to move the club to a more convenient situation for transport etc? Locking the ground may prohibit that and also prohibit growth just when the club needs it.

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ConfianceImp

Posts: 179 Member Since:24/08/2007

#108 [url]

Oct 23 07 9:20 PM

Stalin wrote:
That being the case what principles do you think we could all unite around?


Going back to your original point Stalin, what is your answer to your own question?

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Jerry Maguire

Posts: 595 Member Since:04/08/2006

#109 [url]

Oct 23 07 10:56 PM

arnoldrimmer wrote:
ConfianceImp wrote:
The PLC model has drawbacks in its structure based on the premise that it is the shareholder who is the ultimate owner and benificiary of any dividend accrueing from a succesful business. The CIC on the other hand is an interesting model which has only been in existance for a few years.

As far as I am aware the FL precludes it's members from changng their corporate structure unless agreed by the rest of the FL members. Converting to a CIC under the present FL structure would be nigh on impossible. To create a seperate company which owned the ground to be a CIC but the club itself remains a private limited company could be an option. The alarm bells are already ringong perhaps? A CIC would lock in the asset so maybe it's an option?


I think there is also a case where the business would have to become a charity too before looking at CIC status as a possibility.

Yes that is an option for the ground but in the long term and if anything near the inplicit aims of 2010 came to fore and we were looking at becoming an established Championship Club wouldn't then be the possibility of looking to move the club to a more convenient situation for transport etc? Locking the ground may prohibit that and also prohibit growth just when the club needs it.


my understanding (limited) of CIC's is that such a structure wouldn't preclude a ground move. It would just require that any proceeds from the sale of the ground were ploughed back and not extracted via dividend or other method.

He's only a journeyman Cybermuppet

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mick1632

produce of alien technology

Posts: 760 Member Since:20/10/2006

#110 [url]

Oct 24 07 6:12 AM

a CIC has its safeguards which a PLC does not and i for one would like to see lincoln city a CIC COMPANY we would then get by right the help of the local councils by right by being a CIC.

mick1632

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NottyImp

Time I got out more!

Posts: 5,635 Member Since:02/08/2006

#111 [url]

Oct 24 07 7:33 AM

What about the high percentage of supporters who do not support the Trust? Is the difference between "them" and "us" really down to ten quid?
Supporters Direct from what I have seen really does very little for them. It's more of a political tool that is used by those who want the high five or six figure salaries.


It's an interesting question. How do you represent the interests of fans who won't join the Trust? Since representation requires almost by definition organisation, then you'd have to set up another fans' organisation, but what would stop that being just a copy of the Trust as it currently stands?

6 years on and at the moment where are the tangible benefits of the Trust having a major say in the way the club operates?


5 play-offs and balanced books? Not bad considering where we started from. Goal 2010 - at least on paper a plan to modernise the Club and aspire to have a professional infrastructure? A better Youth policy? Growing our own. Improved commercial operations? Allowing better income streams.

Now, I'm not saying these are all down to the Trust's involvement, but it would be hard to decide who was responsible for improvements in any case. I do think we should not as supporters underestimate how far we've come.

Having said that, the next step up - promotion and consolidation - still looks beyond us, and that will naturally be the question of the next few years.

On the down side we have spiralling ticket prices and still the same old issues with customer service at the club, which still stinks in my experience.


Ticket prices are too high for all clubs in this divisions, to be honest. As to customer service, there are some bad stories, but also some good ones. I've always had pretty good service myself.

Thats not down to just the Trust I know, but "onwards and upwards" isn't really happening, in my opinion - both on and off the pitch. We are standing still or slowly moving backwards - again my opinion but if people want honesty than thats what they are going to get.


Standing still compared to the shambles of five years ago when we didn't even have a proper set of accounts at the Club? I have to disagree with that, I'm afraid. See my points above.

In any business it's about changing the customers perception, it's time that the supporters and fans were seen as "customers" and not as "consumers", just taking anything because it's got LCFC on it.


I dislike both "consumer" and "customer". "Supporter" will do just fine for me, but I take some of your point.

"Help, help I'm being repressed!"

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ForumerDeletedUser

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#112 [url]

Oct 24 07 4:10 PM

Impsforever wrote:

It's an interesting question. How do you represent the interests of fans who won't join the Trust? Since representation requires almost by definition organisation, then you'd have to set up another fans' organisation, but what would stop that being just a copy of the Trust as it currently stands?


Why another organisation? Why not offer an associate directorship to someone to represent the majority of voiceless supporters? You could organise all this outside of the Trust and it would certainly prove that the club was "open" to all.

6 years on and at the moment where are the tangible benefits of the Trust having a major say in the way the club operates?


5 play-offs and balanced books? Not bad considering where we started from. Goal 2010 - at least on paper a plan to modernise the Club and aspire to have a professional infrastructure? A better Youth policy? Growing our own. Improved commercial operations? Allowing better income streams.

[/quote]

We got promotion under Reames. Plans on paper aren't always worth what they are printed on. Is there any point in having a championship standard facility if we are mid table Blue Square in a years time?
Youth policy - for every Hobbs and Loach we had a Huckerby, Carbon or even Ben Dixon. Nothing too different there.

Now, I'm not saying these are all down to the Trust's involvement, but it would be hard to decide who was responsible for improvements in any case. I do think we should not as supporters underestimate how far we've come.


Perhaps.

Having said that, the next step up - promotion and consolidation - still looks beyond us, and that will naturally be the question of the next few years.


At the moment just staying in this poxy league is the priority, and everything else should be on hold.


Ticket prices are too high for all clubs in this divisions, to be honest. As to customer service, there are some bad stories, but also some good ones. I've always had pretty good service myself.


I've had good service from certain sections such as merchandising, Jill Fox is always very helpful, but elsewhere not so. I'm sure you have heard my "stop wasting my time" story from a few years back after simply enquiring about using the venue.


Standing still compared to the shambles of five years ago when we didn't even have a proper set of accounts at the Club? I have to disagree with that, I'm afraid. See my points above.


We were in a shambles down to some poxy accounting and the ITV money going tits up. And if we are one of the two relegated at the end of the season then we are seriously going backwards. Talk off 2010 should end right now and not restart until we sort out this mess and make sure we are still in this poxy league in a years time.


I dislike both "consumer" and "customer". "Supporter" will do just fine for me, but I take some of your point.


Are you a supporter of WH Smiths? Would you miss WH Smiths if it was gone? A lot of people miss Woolworths in the Waterside Centre. I'm sure people missed Maidstone United, Accrington Stanley and the original Telford too.

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ConfianceImp

Posts: 179 Member Since:24/08/2007

#113 [url]

Oct 24 07 4:43 PM

mick1632 wrote:
a CIC has its safeguards which a PLC does not and i for one would like to see lincoln city a CIC COMPANY we would then get by right the help of the local councils by right by being a CIC.

mick1632


Trouble is Mick current FL rules would not allow the club itself to convert. Hence the idea of a stadium company being a CIC could maybe be the answer? Of course there are those that would see that as the first step to a superstore at the ground but I believe that the CIC could prevent that or if it was in the long term interest of the club ensure that any move would have any profits ploughed back into the CIC or the club. The CIC would be made up of stakeholders interested in seeing a succesful club. It's all hypothetical anyway!

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newimp

Posts: 5 Member Since:23/10/2007

#114 [url]

Oct 24 07 10:30 PM

Please excuse me. I am a new supporter of the Imps. Having moved to Lincolnshire some 5 years ago. Never been into live football until a few years ago. Most of my fottie has been match of the day. I cannot afford to go to many Premiership games so have come along to LCFC for the last few years. The playoffs have provided excitement enough.
I do know a bit about business. And these are never run by consensus. They are run by strength at the top. Not by lots of argument. It is often said that the second best decision now is better than the right decision 2 days later.
One needs strength at the top. Most dictatorships do quite well while democracies fail time and time again
.

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NottyImp

Time I got out more!

Posts: 5,635 Member Since:02/08/2006

#115 [url]

Oct 25 07 7:41 AM

Why another organisation? Why not offer an associate directorship to someone to represent the majority of voiceless supporters? You could organise all this outside of the Trust and it would certainly prove that the club was "open" to all.


And to whom - and how - would the Associate Directorship be offered? And how would it be ensured that the Director would actually represent the views of the "majority of voiceless" fans? At a bare minimum you would need a mechanism for election, consultation and feedback, and that requires organisation. Otherwise, you just have a Club or self-appointed, unaccountable busy-body. I predict that before you can say "Well booger me!" you'll have something like a parallel Trust organisation.

We got promotion under Reames. Plans on paper aren't always worth what they are printed on. Is there any point in having a championship standard facility if we are mid table Blue Square in a years time?


The promotion under Reames came at a heavy price though, didn't it? As to Championship facilities, they might help us get out of the BSN and back into the FL. Seriously though, we're not in the BSN yet, and I do find the implied criticism of the Club for trying to improve such things rather odd.

Youth policy - for every Hobbs and Loach we had a Huckerby, Carbon or even Ben Dixon. Nothing too different there.


Both Huckerby and Carbonwere years ago. You're not seriously suggesting that with Loach, Hobbs and Frecklington (you missed him) we haven't seen an upturn in our youth policy, are you? For years almost all fans have moaned that we haven't been producing decent youth players that can break into the first team. And now we are, apparently nothing has changed.

At the moment just staying in this poxy league is the priority, and everything else should be on hold.


I'd like to think we can be a bit more optimistic than that and both stay in the League and plan for the future.

I'm sure you have heard my "stop wasting my time" story from a few years back after simply enquiring about using the venue.


I don't recall it, but it wouldn't be the first time I've heard horror stories about the hiring out of the venue. It does seem to be an area that the Club really needs to improve on.

We were in a shambles down to some poxy accounting and the ITV money going tits up.


We were something like £1.5million in debt with a spiralling budget. The ITV money may not have helped, but it had gone wrong long before that.

And if we are one of the two relegated at the end of the season then we are seriously going backwards.


Agreed.

Talk off 2010 should end right now and not restart until we sort out this mess and make sure we are still in this poxy league in a years time.


I think we can do both, but I'm an optimist.

Are you a supporter of WH Smiths? Would you miss WH Smiths if it was gone? A lot of people miss Woolworths in the Waterside Centre. I'm sure people missed Maidstone United, Accrington Stanley and the original Telford too.


Not quite sure what your point is, but I suspect we may actually agree on it.

"Help, help I'm being repressed!"

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NottyImp

Time I got out more!

Posts: 5,635 Member Since:02/08/2006

#116 [url]

Oct 25 07 9:38 AM

Could a kindly Mod sort the formatting on this thread? It's an interesting debate, but getting somewhat difficult to read!

"Help, help I'm being repressed!"

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ForumerDeletedUser

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#117 [url]

Oct 25 07 9:51 AM

Impsforever wrote:
Could a kindly Mod sort the formatting on this thread? It's an interesting debate, but getting somewhat difficult to read!


This seems to have started to become a problem since thenavigator left!

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uptheimps

ninja turtle poster

Posts: 249 Member Since:08/08/2006

#118 [url]

Oct 25 07 3:54 PM

I think The Navigator said something about using lots of quotes was what causes the formatting to go waffy.

Anyway...

Why another organisation? Why not offer an associate directorship to someone to represent the majority of voiceless supporters? You could organise all this outside of the Trust and it would certainly prove that the club was "open" to all.


I was thinking along these lines as well but I'm not sure how it could be achieved. If someone is going to represent the fans, how would they get in touch with the majority of them to find out their views before a meeting and feed back to them afterwards? I don't know if this happens from the Trust representatives to the Trust members either, to be honest, but a representative needs to have some way of doing that.

Any ideas?

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ForumerDeletedUser

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Posts: 0 Member Since:20/04/2016

#119 [url]

Oct 25 07 4:44 PM

uptheimps wrote:
I think The Navigator said something about using lots of quotes was what causes the formatting to go waffy.

Anyway...

Why another organisation? Why not offer an associate directorship to someone to represent the majority of voiceless supporters? You could organise all this outside of the Trust and it would certainly prove that the club was "open" to all.


I was thinking along these lines as well but I'm not sure how it could be achieved. If someone is going to represent the fans, how would they get in touch with the majority of them to find out their views before a meeting and feed back to them afterwards? I don't know if this happens from the Trust representatives to the Trust members either, to be honest, but a representative needs to have some way of doing that.

Any ideas?


Similar to a general election where people are nominated by a number of fans to stand?

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Jerry Maguire

Posts: 595 Member Since:04/08/2006

#120 [url]

Oct 25 07 5:19 PM

how would you define who was a fan?

He's only a journeyman Cybermuppet

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